The places where we are exposed to the music that shape us all can in many ways be just as important to us as the music itself. Festivals like Warped Tour, Lollapalooza, Coachella, and Bonnaroo are all significant to those who attend them year in and year out. Last year, however, we lost The Bamboozle Festival, a festival that has been integral to so many memories over the past ten years. There’s a story behind it’s downfall, and a man who has been waiting to explain it for over a year as he rebuilt a past love, Skate & Surf, and prepared to launch a new one, GameChanger World.
Today, PropertyOfZack is incredibly excited to be posting a tell-all interview with Bamboozle, Skate & Surf, and GameChanger founder, John D. The interview is long, but the information and conversation is valuable, informative, and at points shocking. Skate & Surf makes its return with an incredible lineup this May and GameChanger World will be launching this spring, so make sure to check out information on both following reading the tell-all interview below!
We’re at the GameChanger World launch today with you, John D. You’ve been teasing it for a good part of a year…
Almost a year, yeah.
The launch of GameChanger World coincides with Skate & Surf, which you’ve also been pushing for a year. Is this the perfect fresh start?
I think it is, because part of what went wrong in the Bamboozle world was the limitations on creativity. It’s like being in front of an offense that has so much power. Now, when you’re in a mobile space and in the live space, I believe that that’s what’s going to change it. I look at it like this: Raves are outselling concerts, badly. Like four to one. Why is that? Are the DJ’s better than the bands with their instruments? No, they’re not. But what is it? It’s the experience. So right now when you go to a show, you come in and the first band goes on. The first band’s on and it’s great, it’s great, then they’re off and the promoter plays bad music to get you go to the bar. Now you’re at the bar and the next band comes on and it’s like, “Oh, it’s great! It’s back up again!” Now that band’s off and the worst music in the world is coming on because the bars want you to spend the money.
The goal of a promoter is to take as much money off the table in those four hours of that show.
Now the headliner’s on and you’ve been on this roller coaster. Headliners last song… encore… “Wow! Great! Okay, go the fuck home.” So it’s like a roller coaster. But at a rave, when you go in, the music doesn’t stop, and it progressively goes up. So my goal in what I do is to try to bridge that gap; to let the kids have a better experience. And the only way to do that is to visually stimulate them. Right now, phones are taken and put above kids’ heads during the show. Distracting the band… but it’s good, it’s not bad. But we need to get the phones to be a tool. Not only a tool that the fans enjoy using, but at tool that helps add a revenue column, a much needed revenue column, to artists, especially the young ones. So being able to put a festival on and bring artists to their fans in a one-on-one gaming experience which is going on outside.
Today was the launch and it was the first day that we’re trying it. To see the reaction of the fans to come in and play Call Of Duty and to play against Buddy and to play against Anthony, that’s added value to it. That’s helping repair that roller coaster, so that experience isn’t just on and off. Fans aren’t a sponge. You can’t squeeze them for everything they have. I hope that what we do is to add more water.
Did GameChanger World come out of your leaving Bamboozle and Live Nation? Or was it something that you had wanted to do that you weren’t allowed to do?
Nothing ever comes out of anything. But GameChanger World… When we decided it was time to move on from Bamboozle, there was a rewards pot that we kind of built with BoozleTwist where fans were rewarded for their amount of time. It was kind of boring and BoozleTwist and CrowdTwist could only take it so far. So we had to find a better vehicle for our conduit to take the vision. What’s better than a mobile game? An app that can change, can update.
The biggest thing is that artists are struggling every day because the average CD, when I was a kid, I paid 18 dollars for. In today’s world, if I was paying 18 dollars for a CD, it should be 30 dollars right now because that was 13 or 14 years ago. But, the average kid spends four dollars because he either steals it, or only buys one song. The average person that buys a record is far and few between the kids that are stealing it or the kids that are just buying it single. The average price has been pushed down to four dollars. How do we (you and I) get the 26 dollars back? How do the artists get it back? How do the record labels get it back? They can’t. You can’t charge more for a concert ticket; you can’t charge more for merch. There are only so many times a band can come through a market without hurting their worth in the market. How do you do all that? You have to create a new space. And the best way to take something from a kid (because I have two) is to game them. I believe that if the artists believe in what we’re doing, and make the right games, I think you’ve seen one today, we’re going to release the best games out there. The artists are developing them. You can see it in the room right now. T. Mills is sitting in there with a developer going over his game.
These are all beta models that we’re showing today. But when they’re ready for game play, they’re going to be fine-tuned and artist approved. It’s not like I’m slapping on a label, I work with the artists. I spend a lot of time; I work with them in concept and recruitment. It’s hard to sell somebody a dream. It’s hard to say hey, I’m making mobile games, just sign away with me. So I set out to get 20 bands. We have sixty right now. It’s big. It’s not a fence, but we don’t want the big bands. I don’t want Green Day, I don’t want blink-182, I don’t want Lil Wayne… Well I would… I’d take all of them, but right now it’s the bands that need it the most because they’re the ones that are going to tour the 200 days a year. They’re the ones that are going to be actively working. It’s like, nobody knows the name of the character in Call Of Duty, nobody knows the guy in Mortal Combat, nobody knows Angry Bird. You know Travis Mills. You know Anthony Raneri. You know Buddy Nielsen.
Is this something you’d like to continue with new bands over time?
Every day. Yeah. Every day I wake up and I’m like, “We’ve got to get this band today.” One of the best games that we have coming out isn’t even a game. Here’s how I explain GameChanger World: GameChanger World is a boardwalk. The artists are the ride. The gaming company that we’re building, the labs, is the electricty. So, the kids are going to come to the boardwalk to go on rides. It’s going to be a community. So the bands that are on the boardwalk with their rides, like Bayside, Senses Fail, T. Mills, they all want more bands to come because it’s more kids coming to the boardwalk to see their ride. Every time a kid pulls that lever, that’s a quarter going back to the band. Most bands don’t see a quarter in four record sales. So we’re trying to put the money back into the artists’ hands, but rewarding the fans. So every band that signs to GameChanger World, gives us 300 prizes. So if I have 20 bands right now, I’ve got six thousand prizes to give out to the kids. So it’s not like you’re mayor of GameChanger World. You aren’t mayor of anything, you actually get a T-shirt, you actually get a player card. We’re taking the gaming art and putting that as our rewards. You can’t buy it. My platform is dead the minute somebody sells something. And the games are free.
So it will roll out soon?
It will roll out in April. We’ll see the first wave of games in April, obviously the bands that are here today will probably get fast-tracked because we’re able to spend time with them and see it. So they’ll be beta quicker than the bands that we don’t really get to see, because again, we have to get their approvals, we have to get them to play it, a lot of UPS shipping iPod Touches back and forth.
Like you mentioned at the beginning, you get to be a lot more creative now.
There was a falling out at Bamboozle. A really bad one. But it wasn’t with Live Nation as a company. It was with a few individuals at upper management. And the rumors are true. I F bombed them. I went in and told them to take their job and stick it as far up their asses as they could put it. I said that, because I had reached a point. The lineup was booked the way we wanted it to be. We were down to the last day. Bon Jovi, obviously was a great name to get, and we all supported it. But it needed to be supported in a way that we do Bamboozle. Not in the way that the company chose to take it. So when Katy Perry and Nicki Minaj are almost confirmed and I’m ready to go and I got told to pull back on Katy Perry because they wanted Bon Jovi. So we got Bon Jovi, great, I helped get him. That’s not the problem. The problem started when Bon Jovi was given ultimate power of the festival. Meaning that I had to go cancel Nicki Minaj. Like I had to call Young Money and say, “Hey, you’re off the table, even though I just begged you and did everything I could to make my bill Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and David Guetta.”
I’m happy with what we had, but it changed the whole demographic of it. Now we have Bon Jovi headlining a concert. It wasn’t a three day festival. There were billboards on the parkway that said “Bon Jovi: One Night Only.” What do you mean? My festival is three days. There was a lot of creative differences, there was a lot of broken trust. We sold Live Nation 51% of Bamboozle. And we gave them that 1% because there was trust. That festival made money for 10 years. Not many festivals can say that they’ve made money every year. And grew and grew! We hit our potential. We know Asbury Park is where we wanted to be, but Live Nation wanted to step the anty up and agreed to do Bon Jovi. Great. But you can’t change the dynamics of something.
The younger generation of Bamboozle were never at the original Skate & Surfs or the original Bamboozle. Asbury was an exciting prospect for a lot of fans.
Asbury was the right city. It was the right layout. The festival made money up until Sunday. Sunday and some poor management. When I say poor, I mean poor. Four dollars of every ticket was used to house corporate transportation. I don’t think there was an employee in the organization that didn’t make it there that day that I didn’t pay for. It was sickening. If you want the summary, my car that I built for 10 years and really put a lot of care into, was jacked and stolen. They took the 1% and used it against me. They said, “Hey, you know what? Get in the back, we’re driving.” And I’m like, “Oh No! You’re going to hit a wall! I want no part of this!” So I hit eject. I left the fans, but it was only to try to change it. It wasn’t that I was abandoning Bamboozle. I love Bamboozle. And hopefully if the right management changes in a couple of years and there’s a turnover, than maybe there’s something to talk about.
What do you think about it not coming back this year? Did you know that it probably wouldn’t?
There was a point that we were so into GameChanger World World and so into Skate & Surf… We put Skate & Surf out to rebuild it where it’s an artist development festival. We were going with a very top act and then we were going to stack the cards. A little bit of confusion in the marketplace has kind of put us in a little bit of a missing man formation, so I’m not proud of my decision, but I had to make the decision. I wasn’t going to take the check to keep a job and to drive something into the ground that I spent ten years building. It meant to much to me. And it meant too much to a lot of kids. So for me to drive around in my car and live in my house and take kids’ money and treat them like a sponge, is what I don’t want anymore. I didn’t drink the punch anymore. But it doesn’t mean that I don’t still have great friends at Live Nation. It doesn’t mean that I won’t ever work with them again, I absolutely will. But in every company, a company is only as good as it’s employees. In my opinion, employees were mistreated.
It’s obviously now on a smaller scale. Do you just want to build again?
No. We want to be able to turn it on every year and make it the resource that it should be.
What should it be?
It should be an artist development platform.
When you say that is that like how we watch Paramore grow every year?
Exactly. I want to develop from within. On this year’s Skate & Surf, I bet you in two years, that my headliner was here. That’s what it’s about. Coachella and Bonaroo, they’re all “Bring Them In, Pack Them.” That model didn’t work for us. We did it in Asbury and it was so delicate of a situation that it fell apart on one artist. And it’s not Bon Jovi’s fault, it was the way we put it together. It wasn’t built that way.
In the latter years of Bamboozle, we saw Lil Wayne and ICP and things out of the typical. Ke$ha… Will we be seeing that again?
No, I don’t think so. We’ll have fun with the games and the creativity of it, but I don’t think you’re going to see… We’re going to try to keep it under a $50 ticket in the beginnings. It’s hard to get these numbers to work when you get a big artist that commands that. It’s not only them, it’s their production, it’s the staging. We were very successful. For 6-7 years, we were one of the most successful festivals. But we tried to go and take a step in a market that is not condusive. I don’t believe that New York is ever going to have a major festival because there’s too many distractions. Any given day in NY there’s a marathon, there’s a barbeque, there’s a family party, fireworks. It’s too hard of a market. We’re not in the desert anywhere. It’s a very tough market. I think our ingredients for success are going to be to stay in a confined growth-modified area.
So we’ll keep seeing artist announcements. What are your plans for merging GameChanger World and Skate & Surf? Where do you see them intercrossing?
The games. I don’t think people are putting enough emphasis on what the value is of the band that’s in that game being here, playing a concert for them, then two hours later coming into an arena to play them one-on-one. That experience is invaluable to them. Like right now. I think people came in today thinking there was going to be a concert and there’s no gear on stage. There’s a DJ booth and four tables. That’s because we’re going to interview bands. We’re trying to educate people. We can’t turn on this really new engine and expect people to know what’s going on. We have to slowly break the ice. What I’d like to say is really cool about today is that I think we’re the first gaming competition that ever had girls at it, because of T. Mills and the bands. I think we’re really on to something here. It was a risk, putting this event up, we didn’t know if five people would come or a hundred people. What we’re doing is putting the experience back into business. Because the concert business is broken. When a rave can outsell a concert, we’re in a lot of trouble. That’s where we have to fix things.
Video game developers generally know their target audience, but your’s is harder to peg down. Do you think this is a perfect mix of the band experience and the target audience?
I think it is. I really think we have something special here. Like I said, when we first set out, I was like, “Man how am I going to convince bands?” My friends would say, “Wow they actually believe this” when we had our first three bands. Then it was up to ten. Then we hit some glitches with the developers, and you have to take a step back and think, “I’ve never put out a mobile game. I’m a concert promoter.” And the gaming companies specialize in consoles (Xbox, Atari…), so they never put out mobile games.
Yet we have ten bands in need of a mobile game. They’re signed on. That showed us that these guys needed it that bad that they were willing to take a risk on me. What I said is that we can change a business. A mobile phone company is only on your phone. They have to advertise and take out big buck ads to get to the kids. Our bands don’t have to spend that money, and the games are free. I’m not telling a kid, “Oh you want to play the game? Give me five dollars.” No, playing for free. Yeah you’re going to watch some ads or you can get rid of them, but you’re helping that artist. Instead of driving in a van, maybe take a mini-bus or maybe a bus. Because the game is putting a desperately needed revenue back. The kids are stealing music. The bands can’t help themselves. They want it because maybe it will sell more tickets. But in the end it’s not putting money in their pockets. And the kids are giving $25 giftcards from iTunes away like it’s hotcakes being the mayor of a game that has a virtual reward. These bands are willing to meet you.
They’re going to tweet at you, to tell you, “Hey great play today!” What’s that worth? When kids download a record, there’s no CD cover. When I was a kid I bought that 18 dollar CD because I wanted that cover. I wanted to see who they thanked, I wanted to know everybody, right? What do they do now?
POZ: Just listen. There’s no visual.
John D: What do you think the visual is going to be? The game. Listen, this platform’s credibility was made or lost on the quality of those games. If the games sucked, I was just going to die. I don’t think anyone would ever see me again. I would have put a big box in my head and just walked around. But the games came out great and it’s because the artists take it. One of our biggest games is not going to be a game. It’s going to be Andrew W.K. He’s got an app that’s coming out that is so phenomenal. It’s like, “Wow!” It’s going to change it. It’s an app. It’s just different. On every baordwalk we have rides. We called Marky from Glamour Kills, I hope to have him contracted by next week to make a game. So that when he’s here at S&S, kids are going to be playing the Glamour Kills game to win T-shirts for the exclusive line of the GameChanger World Glamour Kills.
In a year, where do you see yourself and S&S?
I do a lot of my recruiting through merch numbers. I call up Jeff Menig or another promoter and saying, “How much money?” There’s a band called Crown The Empire right now. The band’s blown up. Everybody’s talking about their merch numbers. I want to be able to use them on games too. So those stats are going to be important. Merch is one of the few numbers that count. Twitter, YouTube, those could be inflated. But you can’t lie about merch and you’re not going to be able to lie about gaming. Those are two important things. There’s no buying games. We’re going to know if the same kid played for a hundred hours. And the stats that we’re going to get out of it are fantastic. And it’s going to connect the bands beyond Twitter and Facebook. The game could last a day, a week, until the next update. And the sucessful bands… You don’t think they’re going to come back and say, “Lets Do It Again!”? Absolutley.
We’ve experienced Bamboozle at Meadowlands and Asbury. Are we going to have the same sort of feeling of an outdoor event?
John: Oh yeah. This site is so much better. It’s all encompassing. Have you seen this amusement park?
John: It’s crazy right?
POZ: When I was a kid, I would have been there every single day.
John: It’s nice that you’re going to be able to come here and go to a restaurant. You’re going to get real food. You’re going to get a real bathroom. If it rains you can go inside for a minute. Then you’ll have the field out on route 9. That’s 2.5 acres of grass. Bamboozle’s never played on grass. Imagine that. 10-12 years later I have grass! “Hey we’re going to play on grass today!” “Wow!” It’s the right place. The owner’s amazing, and it’s supported by the town. The town’s excited for it. Asbury was scared of it. It’s funny because S&S and Bamboozle started in Bruce’s town and we never were able to outlive Bruce’s shadow. Like last year, “Bon Jovi is headlining! Oh Bruce is a special guest!” So we moved, and the first sign we see is “Home To Bruce Springsteen!” I was like, “We can’t get rid of this guy!” So we’re here in Freehold at an amusement park. And it fits! That’s what the idea is, to bring fans out.
With that article that came out from Asbury, about Bamboozle and the numbers and profit, there were a lot of turned faces that didn’t understand because not everyone is in tune with how that all works. What was it like for you seeing the reactions?
It was sad for me man. It was devistating to be there and to be treated the way that they treated us. We weren’t even allowed to have a trailer in the compound. One man’s order was to get us out. I didn’t care. We actually went around and recruited kids to hang out with us and stuff, but it was karma. When I F bombed him in that office, I told him that karma’s going to be a bitch and you don’t know what you just did. One of my dear friends is Paul Tollett from Coachella. He said to me once, “If you build it, you can take it apart.”
You have a nice presence online, everybody knows that.
I’m crazy. I’m crazy. I want to be the renegade that…
POZ: We’ve all seen the videos.
John D: I’m not going to change. I talked with one of my mentors about four months ago. His name is Ron Delsener, he’s a Live Nation Man; an iconic promoter. I played him in a game, he had no idea what it was. But he knew that the phone and the iPad were the devices. He just said to me, “I wish you the best of luck, but I need you to promise me one thing…” This is my mentor saying that. This is going to get good. And he goes, “Just don’t change.” There’s no more Paul Tollett, we’re survivors. We’re a dying breed and the problem is that we’re killing ourselves. The more Coachella expands into electronic music, just makes it harder for us to bring boats to paddle; can’t keep up with those engines you know?
Listen, I am who I am, and I’m a fan. What made me sad about the Live Nation experience was that nobody listened to the music, they listened to numbers. I’ve got a reputation for being crazy because I talk about stuff in the future, like I would be saying Drake, $100,000 and people said, “You’re crazy.” Or “This guy Bruno Mars,” “What are you going to do with him? He’s like a crooner.” Okay. It’s always been that. Nobody gave me credit. Like the Jonas Brothers biggest push came from Bamboozle. We didn’t know that when girls were climbing fences and all, we knew before anybody. But yet, you don’t know what to do with them because people don’t listen to music. “Oh let’s go sign them to a deal and then put them on Burger King and ruin their career.” Burger King just ruined your career like the Fruit Of The Looms killed Good Charlotte. You know? It’s sad. I just think that there needs to be a turnover in the top management of this business. I think it all started with Napster because they weren’t able to do a deal that monotized the downloading in a professional way instead of a primative way. I just think that there needs to be a turnover.
POZ: Do you think there will be one?
John D: Absolutely. It’s idiots like me who are just going to keep calling the people out. I’m not going to stop.
Do you think that people that don’t deserve to have the jobs will lose them?
Right now we don’t have a Mark Zuckerberg in our business. Somebody that’s going to come in with a T-shirt and basically F bomb everything. That’s what we need. The powerhouses; the top five guys, they’re barely even on email. You can’t get them to email you back. Everybody wants something after it’s hot, there’s young managers that tour with these bands and they stay and eat and sleep with these bands. They nurture them. They get to a point and then these ruthless dudes come in and steal them and hack their friends away. Then they take this band on an 80 mph ride and once the bands out its like, “Alright, get out and let me put a new one in. Let’s go.” Dude stop. You’re ruining our business.
Do you think that GameChanger World will help bands like Bayside, Senses Fail, etc get back to that point they were at maybe four years ago? Or new bands that have never experienced that exposure?
Absolutely. Because a good game could be stronger than the band’s music. If the game is good enough and kids are triggered, that band could become an Angry Bird. Imagine if Angry Birds was a band. They could sell out stadiums right now. They would give Taylor Swift a run for her money. That’s what we need to do. My opinion is that the only way we’re going to change it is to get digital. It’s got to be in digital. I just hope that experiences like this work.
Something that can change everything only comes around every so often in any industry. Do you think we’re closer to getting one?
It’s gotta happen. I told you, I left my concert career because it was dying. If I stayed there… The sponge only has so much water. That’s where the problem is. People don’t understand that this business is dying. Strong bands four years ago are going to struggle on the summer circuit this year unless they’re on a package tour. It’s just the way it is. Yet, Porter Robinson is going to come through with a backpack and rip off 4,000 kids. That didn’t happen six years ago.
POZ: So why is that happening now?
John D: Because the experiences are broken. These visual light shows. These kids need to be stimulated. As phones get smarter, it’s going to get worse. They’re going to get younger (the fans) and it’s all visual stimulation. It’s sweet tarts and Xbox. That’s what it is. We need to get the bands into the games.
Obviously you’d take a blink-182 sized band, but you’re more interested in artist development. Do you think that this is the platform to get bands to that level? For example, Senses Fail was never going to be a mainstream popstar band, bands never get that big. Do you think that you don’t have to be a Taylor Swift type of artist to get that big if you have a platform that actually works?
Exactly. If the platform can sustain the artist, there’s going to be more. Right now, Taylor Swift is a radio platform artist. That platform’s pushing her. If there was an Angry Birds platform… Angry Birds is as big as Star Wars right now. If the right game and the right band… Remember that Angry Birds isn’t a person. There’s no relation. There is a chance in the world that Zac from Man Overboard or Anthony from Bayside or somebody is going to come in and sit next to you. That’s a real life experience. That’s a value.
Have you had concerns of bands plegning alegiance to Bamboozle if it ever comes back, not you and Skate & Surf?
We have personal relationships with them all. I’m a promoter that’s always hanging out with them. There’s always that fear. Bruno Mars was kind of a rented gun. I’d seen him, done one other show with him, but even that situation is still a win for everybody. To have Bruno Mars on the radio at the peak of his first record was massive. But am I dissappointed that artists get so big that you don’t want to keep them around? Because they forget where they came from. Like when you’re going through a big label and it’s like, “They don’t understand it.” There’s so many people that want to stop a project. Then a small label, you could call Craig from Rise and have a deal done today, as opposed to WB where four months into it, I’m still waiting for them to approve. The space is what’s good. EDM bands are reacting really well. We have Blend and Dada Life both coming to GameChanger World, which will be huge. We have the hip hop… all music. Absolutely. We know that pop music is going to have the biggest purse spend in the game, the metal kids are going to play the most games but spend the least money, punk kids are not going to spend any money, and the EDM kids are going to spend all their money. DJs can put their music in it every day. A band ,that takes a little bit longer. We could put his beats in and out every day.
The more bands see how well it can go, the more that will be into it.
Right. And my hope is that the next kid with great technology is going to come and find me and help me make my product better. That’s the way it’s gotta work. Somebody’s got to help somebody else.
Obviously you were brave to venture into this, because it could have been a huge disaster.
What’s it like to keep starting again?
My contract was ending at Live Nation. I only had six months left, so it was like if I left then I could kill my noncompete and sift it out and start over. I’m forty. How much more energy do I have to drive down the field again and to play this raging quarterback type of offense? I had to think about my family. We were going to go nowhere at Live Nation. One day that company could be sold and I’m just thrown out in the street. I wanted to take it back. I was very happy being me. They wanted me. I didn’t knock on their door, they knocked on mine. It didn’t work out, but I don’t have any regrets about it. I wish I could change the results of last year, but Brand New, The Gaslight Anthem, and Bon Jovi was a good lineup. It just didn’t work.
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